Interview With Kermit Crawford, Cont'd


Q: We're sensing there was something unpleasant about your experience at the University of Virginia that, sadly, was not unusual for a person of color in a graduate program in behavioral health. Would you mind saying more about that?

A: As I mentioned, I'm from the South, and when I graduated from high school in 1970, we weren't too far from Jim Crow. There were still WHITE ONLY signs on doors and the Dixie flags and the active KKK. I didn't see that so directly in Virginia. But in Virginia, instead of integrating, the state shut down the schools for a couple of years under the principle of Massive Resistance. That was before I got to U.Va., but I was reminded of that culture and history. It's kind of ironic because Virginia later had the first black governor in 1990, Douglas Wilder.

For a period of time, I was the only black graduate student in residency in clinical and community psychology program there. The last year I was there, there were two others in clinical and community and one in social, as I recall. That was out of 75 or 80 graduate students. It was very difficult and I felt often invisible. That contributed to my wanting to leave and not wanting to come back.

Q: Have you been back?

In fact, the first time I returned there was about 2 years ago. Things had changed significantly, and I was finally in a place where I could appreciate what I got from the experience. My chair, as a graduate student, was there. One of the only two black faculty members who had been at Virginia while I was in residency was also there. I went up and told them both "thanks," because I did get a lot. Maybe if I had been different or circumstances had been different, things would've worked out in a different way. But it was important for me to go back for two reasons: to confront the painful feelings I used to have of walking up the stairs to the program—and the feelings were gone; it was fine—but second, I sought to discern those things, the good things, that I got from my experiences in being there. I realized how caring they were, and perhaps had been during my studies there. I also realize the benefits that have continued to pay dividends since I left. They taught me research and methodology. They really did. In their own way, they tried to be as supportive as they could. It was just that I couldn't reach them, and they couldn't reach me. I also think that the larger context and culture of Charlottesville and Virginia also took its toll. Still, I'm glad I went back and found reconciliation.

Q: Is it fair to say that one could draw a direct line from your being a Minority Fellow to your becoming the director of the Center for Multicultural Mental Health and the Center for Multicultural Training in Psychology?

A: Absolutely. If I had not been a Minority Fellow and hadn't had the broader experience of the Minority Fellowship Program, the strong role models, the network, then becoming director of the Center for Multicultural Training in Psychology (CMTP) would not have been on my career trajectory. I couldn't have understood the importance of what I do now had I not had the MFP experience and been able to understand my path in life.

Q: We understand you brought the nation's oldest multicultural training program in psychology back to financial solvency. Could you tell us a little about the condition of the center when you arrived and what you had to do to make it financially stable again?

A: When CMTP started, there were five minority psychology training programs. They were all funded back in 1972 with the help of Dr. James Ralph of the National Institute of Mental Health. Today, of those five, there's only one standing, and that's our program. So we're 45 years old this year.


Every year is a challenge, as multicultural training in psychology is not typically a priority funding area. When I came in as director, we had to pay for everything. We had to pay for the faculty. We had to pay our own salaries, office space, supplies—everything. I'm the fifth director of CMTP. When I walked into the job, I held it in an interim position while we were looking for a permanent director. But this wasn't in my career plan, as I just intended to "care take" until the director (someone else) was identified. At least that's what I thought. My plan was to sit in the interim position for no more than 3 months. Quite unexpectedly, after 3 weeks, I knew this was where I needed to be. So I put my hat into the ring for the job, and I was offered and accepted the positon. That was 18 years ago.

Soon after I got the permanent position, I was preparing to submit for the five intern slots for the training program for the following year. But on the morning of the day I was going to submit those names, I received a call telling me there was funding for only three internships. It frankly was a discouraging phone call. I sat with my associate director, and we were "crying" from despair over the sudden change. As I was crying to her, it occurred to me that if I'm going to cry to anybody, I needed to cry on the phone to somebody who has got some money!

So I called the area director of the Massachusetts Department of Mental Health, Clifford Robinson, who happened to be an African American gentleman I had known for a number of years. I told him we had approval for only three interns—fewer than the five we were initially told we'd have. He listened to me, asked questions, and said, "Let me see what I can do." He called me back—about 2 hours later—and said: "I got some good news for you. We found some money. You tell them, instead of three interns, we're going to support seven." He enabled the funding for the additional interns. Now this is the power of networking and credibility. Clifford was a guardian angel who believed in us and multicultural mental health. They are always out there. After that we were able to reach sustainability and are still funded primarily by the Department of Mental Health. We have had a minimum of six internships each year, and some years, more. We've had as many as 13 internships in a single year. But we don't particularly want that many, because it changes the character of the program. The other thing Clifford often said—and that I had trouble hearing initially—was "No money, no mission." I get it now!

Q: As you look back on your career arc, tell us something that surprised you.

A: First of all, the "worst case" can happen. But it almost never does. Another thing is, if you build it, they will come. People are there to support you, to do the right thing. When you try to do the right thing, even though you don't think you have allies, they're there. People you wouldn't even expect—they come in to offer a kind word, or offer materials, assistance, and support. Something else that came as a surprise was that I really wasn't good enough in the beginning when I left graduate school and was placed in a responsible administrative position. I wasn't ready. I had to go back and learn to prepare to be good enough. I had to build competence, confidence, savvy, and a network.


If I could suggest anything to the students coming to me right now, it is first find your competence. Competence is necessary. It's not "fakin' it, until you're makin' it." Competence in what you do, especially for career longevity, is a necessary precondition for most of us. Also, it is necessary to be competent, but it is not sufficient. I would recommend developing competency in understanding systems and understanding people dynamics. Because systems may tend to move you up the line to leadership, you may or may not be ready for that. Please remain vigilant, because it is about success and the long game. There has to be some aspect of "laboring in the field" in preparation. I didn't understand how important that was until after the fact, and then I had to go back and do my laboring in the proverbial field. I was not exempt.

Q: We're guessing you formed ways of building competence in your training programs.

A: One of the things our faculty has done is establish competency criteria. We've established these based on the APA Guidelines on Multicultural Education, Training, Research, Practice, and Organizational Change for Psychologists. And in doing that—related to the Standards of Accreditation—we identify the areas in which psychologists operate. Based on those areas, we identify the criteria and tasks we think are important to be able to establish this thing we call competence. In psychodiagnostic testing, multimodal psychotherapy, supervision and didactics and functioning in a multidisciplinary environment, each area is important for competency development.


One thing we think is important is the ability to understand the different areas of competency that are associated with psychologists and to break them down into the component parts—to understand the parts that have to be put together to build this foundation of competency. Another is to talk with as many psychologists as you can and people who work in the mental health field. Talk with psychiatrists, talk with social workers, and understand the comparisons and the contrasts. Understand the areas where you can bring value and the areas where you can't. As you do those things, and you do the preparation in terms of the competency areas, you build competence, and you also build your networks. All of this is really important to success.

Q: You do not strike us as a particularly prideful person. But as you look back on your career, what would you say you are most proud of?

A: I am proud of every intern that has come through CMTP to date. I am so gratified to hear of their success, and in that I relish. The other time I can be proud is when I look back at that little snotty-nosed boy who used to run around all day in Snow Hill and didn't even know what a psychologist was. Then, when I think of where I am now, I think of two ways. The Dr. Crawford function that has to be career oriented. But there's also the Kermit function that has to keep the Dr. Crawford function in check and to live this life. And the Kermit function is the ministry that I have. Dr. Crawford is the tool I use for the gift I've been given. I can't afford to be satisfied because I have so much more to give. And I don't have that much more time to give it. I can never give what has been given to me. But I'm going to keep trying.